Re: List intolerance VS advocacy

[Jason Armstrong <jarmstrong@technicacorp.com>]

Well said!
I totally agree.
I see so much anger on this supposed 'miscellaneous' list due to 'newbie'
questions asked here about issues and problems people have installing
OpenBSD for the first time. Questions about which video cards are supported,

following -current, port/package installation problems, etc. Certainly most 
of these questions have answers that can be found at OpenBSD.org or the 
archives, but newbies (being newbies) aren't necessarily aware of this.

I wasn't aware of a 'newbies' list until I saw this email. If there is in 
fact a list of this type, why is it not mentioned here:
http://openbsd.org/mail.html ?? As far as I'm concerned, the anger
associated with some newbie having the unmitigated gall to ask a question
that as far as most of us are concerned, has a very simple answer, has no 
grounds. To this I say if you don't like the questions asked on this list, 
how about not reading them? It does the 'community' no good whatsoever, 
advocacy-wise, if someone asks a question and is immediately showered in
flames. If we want to have a little closed minded community where only 
like-minded individuals are welcome, fine. We just shouldn't expect our
doors 
to be beaten down by prospective users. Otherwise, we all need to remember 
from whence we came. I don't think anybody here came out of the womb fluent 
in shell scripting, C code and regular expressions. We all were beginners 
at one time and we need to remember this. If we want new funding for the 
project, more people buying CDs, shirts and posters, more corporations using

OpenBSD, new hardware being donated, etc. we need to put a better face on
the 
community (so-to-speak) and cut back on the flamage.

Just my two cents.

Jason 




-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Sandeman-Allen (RSCorp) [mailto:scott@rscorp.ab.ca] 
Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2002 6:15 AM
To: misc@openbsd.org
Subject: List intolerance VS advocacy


Hello fellow list members.

I am disturbed by some of the 'negative' comments on this list even though
they are not directed at me. This is not because I "can't take it" or that
I'm a "sensitive new-age guy" but because of the damage that it does.

While I agree that many newbies don't thoroughly read the manual(s) I am
enlightened enough to know that not everyone knows how to research nor do
they learn in the same manner. It is also a fact that many people have
trouble learning from the printed word let alone transpose that into their
situation. While the documentation is decent it certainly does not hand-hold
the new kid on the block so to speak. More could be said, you get the idea.

Another fact to keep in mind is that many users/newbies come from different
environments and don't 'think' like *nix let alone BSD. MCBS,YGTI

It is detrimental to everyone if we discourage people from asking questions
and when we offend users of any experience level. Think of it this way, in a
hypothetical example: 

    John B. or Jane Q. Newbie is looking for an alternative OS 
    for personal use. They find out about a cool project called 
    OpenBSD and investigate it. Then, months later, they are in 
    a board meeting when it is discussed that their server got 
    hacked or some other IT related problem where OBSD would fit.

How do they respond in this situation? 

If they had a good experience using OBSD they could say "Why not use
OpenBSD..." Then, as a community, we would have just won. I don't believe
any illustrations are necessary for what a bad experience would do in that
board room or _any_ other place the 'flamed' person may venture.

So. What _IS_ the purpose of this, or any OBSD list? Trust me, it is not
"just" about the primary topic. And don't believe that "little harm is done
because messages disappear off the list" either - remember many newbies are
pointed directly to the archives for assistance!

There is now a 'newbies' list and people should be encouraged to ask their
entry-level questions there (it should be listed on the official site BTW).
They should be encouraged to RTFM and most importantly, they should be
encouraged to continue using a great OS.

Many on this and other OBSD lists are very good at directing people at a
good starting point. My compliments to them for their patience and tolerance
(especially with my questions ;-). 

OBSD is a great project, the developers deserve huge kudos for a job well
done. The best way we can show our appreciation is by making the community
just as good so that users come and stay... and encourage others to do so as
well.

Thanks for your time,

Scott

______________________________________________
Scott Sandeman-Allen
Roderick Scott Corporation
Edmonton, Alberta. Canada

"Its not that we're much better, its just that we're less worse"
                        - The Arrogant Worms