Re: List intolerance VS advocacy

[Scott Francis <darkuncle@darkuncle.net>]

On Thu, Jun 13, 2002 at 05:44:08PM -0700, dwar@earthlink.net said:
> > > I wasn't aware of a 'newbies' list until I saw this email. If there is
in
> > > fact a list of this type, why is it not mentioned here:
> > > http://openbsd.org/mail.html ??
> >
> > Because you are bitching before reading the mailing list archives where
this
> > has been discussed to death many times.
>
> The fact that this keeps coming up despite being discussed in the
> mailing list archives, suggests that something is very very wrong.  I
> know there are two problems with the mailing list archives right now:
>
> 1) People assume that if it isn't mentioned, it doesn't exist.  If
> there's no newbie mailing list on the list of official oBSD lists, then
> they're not going to search the archives for references on it.
> Similarly, the list of FAQs doesn't point to 3rd party FAQs, etc etc.

People need to LEARN that google is their friend, and the mailing list
archives should _always_ be searched before any question is posted. It is
rare that a question is posted that has not been asked before.

> This is incorrect behavior, I agree, so please don't flame me for it.
> It just so happens to be the way non-technical people think.

This is not an OS for non-technical people, nor does it aspire to be. "Right
tool for the job"; if you're not a carpenter, chances are you don't need a
$10K skil saw. If you're non-technical, you probably don't want OpenBSD.

> 2) The oBSD mailing list archive search program treats the query
> phrase as one complete phrase by default.  Just about every other
> search program treats each word as a seperate query, by default.

there are multiple archives, with multiple search interfaces. And then there
is http://www.google.org/bsd ... google++

> I.e., our list looks for "OpenBSD PPPoE FAQ" whereas google
> breaks it down into +OpenBSD +PPPoE +FAQ and gets
> considerably more hits.

yes, and google does a good job of searching list archives. groups.google.com
is also a good source of info. I think the solution is to make "search first,
then post" such a common saying that it becomes one of the first things
people learn about the Net. We're not there yet, but I can't tell if the
situation is improving or degrading.

[snip]
> Again, there is nothing wrong with the way it's set up now - it's just
> different from what non-technical people expect.  And as a result,
> they believe it is easier and faster to just come out and ask the
> question - rather than get used to a entirely different way of doing
> things.

they are wrong. UNIX itself is an entirely different way of doing things, and
of thinking, than most people (ESPECIALLY non-technical ones) are used to.
They can either adapt, or have somebody else be the sysadmin. Neither option
is all that difficult. See above re: non-technical people and OpenBSD.

> I'd much rather correct the source of the problem, than to keep
> treating the same symptoms over and over again.

Yes. The source of the problem is a misconception over what OpenBSD is and
why it exists. The solution is education, and repeating the answers to
questions that have already been answered merely reinforces a pattern of bad
behavior.
--
Scott Francis                   darkuncle@ [home:] d a r k u n c l e . n e t
Systems/Network Manager          sfrancis@ [work:]         t o n o s . c o m
GPG public key 0xCB33CCA7              illum oportet crescere me autem minui

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