Re: List intolerance VS advocacy

["Scott Sandeman-Allen (RSCorp)" <scott@rscorp.ab.ca>]

Instead of answering individual comments and drawing out the "List
intolerance VS advocacy" thread any more than necessary, I've forked it
into "Fixing misc@".

For many of the points _since_ my first volley surfaced, we could argue
indefinitely and never be resolved. That's okay - really!

I see now that a few changes in my original wording would have sharpened
the point though some still wouldn't get it, let alone agree, even if
they did RTFMessage again.

For those that missed it, I will clarify my opinion:

    Never under-estimate the potential of anyone. Newbie or otherwise.
    Respect and decency should be universal (someone has to start)

Additionally, I should have said:
    Some aspects of this list are broken by design & interpretation.

To address some of the additional comments:

Personally, I cannot say what motivates each developer any more than the
next guy. I did know that money, fame and conquering the world was never
on the table for _most_ before my first message. But then, the OpenBSD
project is not _just_ a collection of developers either. Though without
them, we would not have the project.

With that said, you cannot tell me that a group of people build
something and take great pains to make it universally available, stable
and efficient and then say they "don't really care if it gets used" ("Is
that really sand your head is in?" one might ask ;-)

So, what is it that really motivates each one to do their bit? It
doesn't matter one iota as long as each individual is getting what they
need/want out of it. 

As individuals or a community, we don't do things for failure. 

How do you measure non-failure? I believe that it is called success. We
measure or recognize success through many indicators. For some it might
be user base, others its packets per second or years since last
intrusion. However you measure it, successes builds pride (which is a
motivator for some).

All of this is really noise from the original intent.

It is not just newbies that get flamed and list members themselves don't
always practice what they preach i.e. they complain about questions
being incomplete, when the information they demand is in front of them.
They waste more of their "valuable" time ranting than it would have
taken to fully read the post in some cases.

Personally, I would _prefer_ that if someone desires to flame* a post,
they don't. It saves everyone time by not having to review the
additional useless post(s). I know many agree with this.

To all who have commented (both on and off list) regardless of
perspective, thanks!

Scott

PS. To allay fears in some, I don't _have_ to have the last word either.
In other words, I have more interest in solutions than belaboring this
issue. Therefore it is unlikely I will respond on or off-list to any
further comments, as it is time for this thread to end.

*some define a flamer as a "fsckin' lamer" ;-)