Re: New unofficial document - oamp.pdf

[Mark Farquaad <markfarquaad@gmail.com>]

Hi Nick,


On Fri, 31 Dec 2004 20:59:34 -0500, Nick Holland
<nick@holland-consulting.net> wrote:
> "It would be GREAT if we could give everyone in the world a million
> [dollars|euros|whatever], in a non-inflationary way.  Why don't you just
> do that?  I've done my part by coming up with this idea, you figure out
> the details!"

O.K., I understand that you're not satisfied with me only
offering *ideas*.
But look at it from my perspective: You (and the dev team)
are the one's with:
1.) The capability of launching and creating a documentation
project which would as I envision, allow more people to actively
participate and submit work.
2.) The *knowledge* and *experience* how to get many people
to work on one big project (with many side-arms), withtout
endagaring quality. The quality of the OpenBSD source code
is testimony to this knowlege and experience.

All I'm asking from you Nick and from the rest of the OpenBSD
dev team (which might go all the way to Theo, I don't know how
you are organized) is to supply that which cannot be supplied
by me and those who are willing to put in work for the FAQ or
documentation (project).
I want you and the dev team to think about how to use the same
organization which is used for the source code, to allow multiple
people to contribute to the FAQ / documentation without quality 
being endangered and then to implement this organization for a 
FAQ / documentation project, so people like me and others who
DO NOT HAVE THE POSSIBILITIES you and the dev team have,
to start contributing and putting in the work they can.

I repeat this to you as I said before: I never said I could do a better
job than you. I never even said ANYONE could singlehandedly do
a better job than you. 
My whole point is to set up the FAQ / documentation project on
the rails it really needs to become what I and many others feel
would aid the entire OpenBSD community and project.

You keep trying to punch me up for not submitting any specific
work / updates for the existing FAQ.
Again:
You're missing my point!!!

Yes, eventually I might be willing to put in real work in an ongoing
FAQ / documentation project, but right now I'm focused on starting
this project first!

Why?

Because of all that which you are complaining about:
That there are not enough people submitting real work!
To get people to submit real work, you *MUST* offer an
environment which allows people to submit work.
In other words: You have to encourage people to submit
work, you have to offer a homepage, maybe a discussion
board or separate mail list, means of communication, etc.
for those people who are willing to put in work.

Look at the difference between FreeBSD and OpenBSD:

FreeBSD has a homepage for the documentation project
where they ASK people to contribute and send in their
stuff.
OpenBSD does not. The only thing OpenBSD provides is
your (new) link, telling people in about 200 ways what you
don't want, what they must comply to, etc. etc.
Honestly: Do you think your link:
http://www.holland-consulting.net/obsd/faq-help.html
would motivate ANYONE to put in work?
So why do you complain about too few people putting in work?

I say an environment needs to be created, which allows
people to put in work and which motivates them to do so.
I am more than willing to discuss how such an environment
should or could be created, although admitting that the dev
team probably knows more about this. But I CANNOT create
such an environment myself!!
I am NOT part of the OpenBSD team and I don't have the means
to create such an environment by setting up an own project with
an own homepage, discussion board for discussions on what
should go in the documentation and what not, how things could
be rearanged, etc.
YOU and the devs MUST set this up or noone will!
I can only ask you to do it and try to convince you WHY setting
up such a project / environment might be benificial to the 
entire OpenBSD project.
Or at least to think about it!

So for the moment, please quit "whining" about me not
submitting any "real" work to the FAQ. Trying to convince
you and the dev team to create an environement where more
people contribute to the FAQ IS *real work*. Believe me.
Maybe even THE "real work"...
But that might be hard to see from your point of view...


> I have received no meaningful assistance from you in improving the
> official FAQ.

Yes you have.
If a better environment is created for everyone to be able
to contribute work to the FAQ, this benefits the FAQ and
potentially greatly improves it in the long run.
I have been working on this in numerous emails and posts 
here quite hardly for quite some time now.
This is meaningful assistance I believe.

> So, provide another person.

That's not the point as I have said many times before.

> Back in November, as a result of this thread last time around, I posted
> a link to my FAQ help guidelines.
>   http://www.holland-consulting.net/obsd/faq-help.html
> Almost 500 people have looked since then.  

What does this prove?
Potentially 500 people might have been interested in contributing!!

One person has offered to
> help, and has given me reason to believe he might really produce some
> work for me in the future.  

Don't tell me this is a suprise to you???
I mean O.K, you have put in CONSIDERABLE work into this 
new page you put up, I'll gladly grant you that, but what it really
does is SCARE people away!
You, or OpenBSD more correctly, is not offering the people who
might be willing to put in that amount of work which they are 
willing to give for free, the NEEDED environment to do so.
And this might not even be your fault. I see this as one 
(of the biggest) lacks of this otherwise faboulous and awsome 
project (OpenBSD).
And reading about OpenBSD's and Theo's (?) stance on security
by proper documentation, I am simply perplexed why the FAQ or
documentation of OpenBSD is so underinflated, and not even 
lacking in itself, but especially lacking in structure to create, in 
an environment, a real project, which would pool all possible
resources and make it EASY for everyone to contribute.
The point is: For many types of work on the FAQ you don't have
to be a dev who understands every detail, so why not open the 
documentation project to more people who are willing to help?
Yes, some parts do need *dev knowledge*. It is the goal of
a good environment to encourage everyone to contribute and make
it easy, while at the SAME time not endangering the quality of the
documentation / FAQ.
Yes, these are TWO CONTRADICTING and far apart goals, it's
not easy, but it's neccessairy to try and get them both under one 
and the same hat!
Currently you are only stressing quality and shying everyone away!
You or OpenBSD more correctly are only stressing one half of 
the two goals needed to make a great FAQ / Documentation.
You miss creating a structure and environment that makes it
easy to contribute and thus motivates people to do so.
I might not have all the answers, maybe not even one, on how to
set this up and make it all possible.
But so far I havn't seen ANY will from your or the rest of the dev
team to try to set something like this up, or even to just listen to
what I am trying to tell you guys.
And that is a little frustrating, I'll adimit.

O.K. you did set up this new page, it's a start, but as you can see,
it's very one-sided. It's extremly shying people away.
Put yourself in the feet of people who are willing to contribute
their free time for FREE. They *don't* want to read miles and miles
of rules, limits, orders, do's and don'ts to be able to put in their
free work for free!
Why, in the time of reading your page, they could have corrected
the FAQ somewhere where they found a bug!
This is the real problem which must be solved. - In a better way
than it is today. Actually I feel this problem is not properly addressed
at all or in any way yet!


> No one has stepped up and offered quantities
> of work (though admittedly, there very well may be people taking my
> advice, and working, not talking, so maybe finished products will hit my
> mail box one of these days).

Why does it have to be your mail box?
Why not create a forum or mailing list or set up a CVS server
so people can sent in their stuff. Why not an own project page?
Why not copy some of the structures which are used for the
source code and then just allow those who are willing to contribute
to the Documentation?


> I have stated point blank that there are things that need to be done
> that I am incapable of doing.  Unless YOU can find someone to actually
> DO something, your babble only stops me from doing the work I could be
> doing.

You're missing the point again.
You will NEVER make it to get the FAQ to what you (and many
others) actually want or could use.
What's really needed is a TIME-OUT, you (AND the rest of the 
dev team, probably including Theo) need to take some
time off from updating the FAQ and really think about how a 
FAQ / Documentation project could be set up, so the work
that needs to be done can and will be done by many more
people than those which are doing it now.
(And think about the most important factor to get people to
do work: MOTIVATION!)
You need to think about how to change the structures, so
you are not constantly behind of what you think should be
done. This situation is de-motivating to you to, is it not?
I mean are you happy that this FAQ is taking more time from
you than you are willing to give and you still can never do
all that needs to be done?
What I'm saying is, IT'S A PROBLEM OF THE SYSTEM,
a problem of the STRUCTURE or more correctly, THE LACK
of a structure / organization, that splits up work and lets more
people contribute and do parts of the work.
It's not anyone's fault. It's just that noone really propberly set
up the FAQ / Documentation project yet. (And this, although,
is somewhat typical for programmers, who don't care about
documentation, only about the code, but it still a bad habbit!)


> There is a limited number of people who are technically semi-competent,
> can string words together in semi-coherent manner, can write for
> non-expert users and are willing to not only work for free, but with
> substantial out-of-pocket expense (you DON'T want to see my electric
> bills).  Oh, and be willing to take time out of what they could be doing
> for money...

That's my whole point!!!!
I want to make the situation for those people, INCLUDING YOU!
better! This can never be done by any amount of work I contribute,
but only by creating a new structure which allows and motivates
more people to contribute. 
And you know, the people are out there, you know that.
It's a question of not scaring people away by having good structures
which make it easy to contribute, while still ensuring quality.

Yes: I or my idea does require and use some time and
effort from you and the dev team. Additional time. Yes, I 
admit that.
BUT: Only to set up something once and for all (more or less), 
with the goal of using LESS of your time and at the same time
producing a better output, than the FAQ is today.
The FAQ is today what it is, because noone has the
time to change it.
So create a structure which can create a FAQ WITHOUT the
time of devs!!! - And then the FAQ will be good (or better).
(If at the same time quality can be ensured by some mechanism.)



> > But I won't waste my time in another
> > disorganized non-findable private non-offical documentation
> > project somewhere where those who need it most certainly
> > won't ever find it.
> 
> When enough people find it useful as to point to it, the search engines
> will know.  When I'm impressed with it being a quality source with
> ongoing maintenance and up-to-date info, I'll link to
> http://www.openbsdsupport.org from the FAQ.  I don't know if
> OpenBSDSupport.org is going to take off.  Daniel doesn't know.  The
> people who contribute don't know.  I wish them the best.

So do I.
But I am skeptical.
Why?
It's not official.
If you put in your free time, you just want it to be part of
the official deal!!

The key word is here is *motivation*!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We are dealing with humans after all.
No motivation, no work!!
So start dealing with this in a smart way!

Never, never, NEVER kill off motivation in ANY way if
there is ANY other possible way of doing something.
And these "other" ways don't drop out of your behind
for free when you sleep. You have to think about them
and search for them... "hard"!


> First, I prefer the title "Arrogant S.O.B.".  If you are going to
> name-call, do it right.

O.K., I take it back.
Maybe that's not the problem. Maybe it is.
With some it might be. All I can see is that things
are not the way I feel would be better for OpenBSD
and that apparently a lot of people are *not* listening
to what I am saying or trying to say.


> You will note that none of the people who have contributed to
> OpenBSDSupport.org are here whining.  You are making a lot of people
> ignore you over nothing at all.

If you consider my driving at changing the structures and 
organization or actually creating a user-friendly and people-
motivating project for  the official FAQ / Documentation as 
"whining", so be it.
I can't tell you what to think.
I just think it's stupid, considering you yourself are complaining
about not having enough time for the FAQ, for this all taking
to much of your time, about not enough people other than yourself
contributing real work, etc., etc.

Mark