From: owner-ceremony-digest@monkey.org (ceremony-digest) To: ceremony-digest@monkey.org Subject: ceremony-digest V2003 #59 Reply-To: ceremony@monkey.org Sender: owner-ceremony-digest@monkey.org Errors-To: owner-ceremony-digest@monkey.org Precedence: bulk ------- + Ceremony list web page: http://www.monkey.org/~laps/ceremony/ + See the above site for subscribing/unsubscribing and back issues. ------- ceremony-digest Thursday, December 11 2003 Volume 2003 : Number 059 (Fac33) Re: [reply] -> _1963___new_order__international_2____051203____ Re: (Fac33) Re: [reply] -> _1963___new_order__international_2____051203____ (Fac33) fac73pl RE: (Fac33) Re: [reply] -> _1963___new_order__international_2____051203____ Re: (Fac33) Re: [reply] -> _1963___new_order__international_2____051203____ (Fac33) Colin Loo/VIC/NAB/NAG_AP is out of the office. RE: (Fac33) Re: [reply] -> _1963___new_order__international_2____ 051203____ Re: (Fac33) Re: [reply] -> _1963___new_order__international_2____ 051203____ Re: (Fac33) Re: [reply] -> _1963___new_order__international_2____ 051203____ Re: (Fac33) Re: [reply] -> _1963___new_order__international_2____ 051203____ RE: (Fac33) Re: [reply] -> _1963___new_order__international_2____ 051203____ Re: (Fac33) Re: [reply] -> _1963___new_order__international_2____ 051203____ Re: (Fac33) Re: [reply] -> _1963___new_order__international_2____ 051203____ (Fac33) [preview] -> _international_2(statistics)_____ (Fac33) Re: [reply] -> _perfect_kiss(video)_version_issues____ Re: (Fac33) Re: [reply] -> _1963___new_order__international_2____ 051203____ RE: (Fac33) TPK & Temptation versions (was: _1963___new_order__in ternational_2____ 051203____) Re: (Fac33) TPK & Temptation versions (was: _1963___new_order__in ternational_2____ 051203____) (Fac33) Another "Blue Monday" cover Re: (Fac33) Another "Blue Monday" cover Re: (Fac33) Another "Blue Monday" cover (Fac33) [update] -> _new_order__international_2____111203____ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 12:19:23 EST From: GaoBest@aol.com Subject: (Fac33) Re: [reply] -> _1963___new_order__international_2____051203____ Hey again, My apologies about the Paradise Remix - I had this idea that the Racic mix on Retro was a bit different from the 12" but it's really been awhile since I heard it and I didn't try matching them up by time. I just thought it was edited (shortened). I'm also wondering if *any* of the Run2 12" single was released onto CD form, I can't see it on Retro, and I'm pretty sure that the 4 tracks were different from the 7". I realize they made 20000 of Run2 12" (goofingly I have 3 of the 7" and only 2 of the 12" as I had another but sent it to a friend), but I still think those 4 tracks should get some form of CD issue. And yes those 1963 promos were fucking horrible. I was so appalled after I bought them in 1995, all eager and excited (especially because of the ace vinyl sleeve cutwork art), only to play them and hear something like "the ax-master, non-stop" and thinking... "huh????" - it was absolutely a wretchifying experience. What version is the 4:01 time on the "1963" London Records promo - you know, that "gold" disc one-track cd promo (probably from '95)... the one that every record store seemed to be selling from a quid to a tenner in the latter 90s. No real info given - as if since it's New Order, no additional info needs to be given :-) Also... " 9:55 17 the perfect kiss (live video) from the 'best of' japanese laserdisc" How is this different from the regular Substance video release, or the one on Retro? And... There's the 4:12 edit of True Faith (US 12" promo) - is that the same as the 4:10 version on the US promo CD? The other Streetwise Confusion tracks... The 3:40 edit of BLT (US 12" promo) - is that on any CD? And is FAC73PL a bootleg or an official promo? x Mike In a message dated 12/6/03 7:31:12 AM, rajg@nol.net writes: << however, now that the bonus disc of 'retro' has been out for awhile, i figured the 'paradise(remix)' is not as rare as it use to be...so i have left that off for now.. also, yes, there are much better versions of '1963' also, but once again...it was released as a single by itself in 1995...so it needs to be represented... the vinyl only mixes are as follows - ------------------------------------ 1963 (joe t. vanelli light mix) 8:59 v 1963 (lionrock M6 sunday morning mix) 6:25 v 1963 (lionrock sparse'n fast mix) 6:07 v the third mix is promo only, but is not that great..so i wouldn't want to include that either.. i guess i could have tried to fit the original 1963 as the b-side to 'true faith'...placing it on disc 3....but then it would have pushed off 'mto'..and i didn't want to do that... >> ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 10:28:59 -0800 From: Sam Habash Subject: Re: (Fac33) Re: [reply] -> _1963___new_order__international_2____051203____ On Sat, Dec 06, 2003 at 12:19:23PM -0500, GaoBest@aol.com wrote: > Hey again, > > My apologies about the Paradise Remix - I had this idea that the Racic mix on > Retro was a bit different from the 12" but it's really been awhile since I > heard it and I didn't try matching them up by time. I just thought it was > edited (shortened). Well, the Retro version seems to clock at 6:40, so it's off by a few seconds, which may just be due to intro/outro length. > I'm also wondering if *any* of the Run2 12" single was released onto CD form, Not as far as I know. > I can't see it on Retro, and I'm pretty sure that the 4 tracks were different > from the 7". I realize they made 20000 of Run2 12" (goofingly I have 3 of > the 7" and only 2 of the 12" as I had another but sent it to a friend), but I > still think those 4 tracks should get some form of CD issue. I can't imagine why not, what were the terms of the settlement with that stupid John Denver suit? > And yes those 1963 promos were fucking horrible. I was so appalled after I > bought them in 1995, all eager and excited (especially because of the ace vinyl > sleeve cutwork art), only to play them and hear something like "the > ax-master, non-stop" and thinking... "huh????" - it was absolutely a wretchifying > experience. Is that what it is saying? Could be the "The assiest of all time"... > What version is the 4:01 time on the "1963" London Records promo - you know, > that "gold" disc one-track cd promo (probably from '95)... the one that every > record store seemed to be selling from a quid to a tenner in the latter 90s. > No real info given - as if since it's New Order, no additional info needs to > be given :-) Wouldn't it have to be the "1995 Arthur Baker Radio Remix" That clocks at 4:04, close enough. > Also... I'm not -1, but I'll take a shot at these. > 9:55 17 the perfect kiss (live video) from the 'best of' japanese laserdisc" > How is this different from the regular Substance video release, or the > one on Retro? Hrm, two listings I've looked at for the JP laserdisc at has this as 9:10. How did you derive the timing? > There's the 4:12 edit of True Faith (US 12" promo) - is that the same as the > 4:10 version on the US promo CD? I'd guess so, based on the picture of: http://www.worldinmotion.net/neworder/discography/singles/1987/TrueFaithCDPromoUS.jpg (Wow, I want this!) This has 4:10 version labelled as 'Album Edit', so I'd guess they're one and the same. > The other Streetwise Confusion tracks... That never was reissued as CD was it? The acapella version would be the main interest there. There have been a lot of good remixes of Confusions (yeah, I'd qualify that Wesley Snipes one as good, even if it bears little resemblance to the original) so I wouldn't know where -1 would start... > The 3:40 edit of BLT (US 12" promo) - is that on any CD? Not the 3:44 Shep Pettibone remix edit, but the LP edit? Doesn't look like it, according to the discography sites I've scoured. > And is FAC73PL a bootleg or an official promo? This one, right? http://www.niagara.edu/neworder/graphics/fac73pl.jpg I can't see anybody other than London going to the trouble of putting out colored vinyl with a question mark on it. http://www.niagara.edu/neworder/singles/bm95.html lists: 12": UK 1995 (London Records 90 Ltd FAC73PL) [promo] ** 6:29 Blue Monday (plutone mix) 4:46 Blue Monday (plutome dub) The FAC73SW version has a uniquely titled "corleone mix" that seems to be the brain mix - --Sam ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 13:59:49 EST From: GaoBest@aol.com Subject: (Fac33) fac73pl Oh wretched - I don't have this as colored vinyl! Oh wait, I looked at the picture. It's black vinyl - just looks like it *could* be in color. Relief. Thanks for the other info. BTW that True Faith '87 US CDpromo has always gone for a lot on ebay, I assume it still does. Nice picture, non? x Mike In a message dated 12/6/03 10:29:16 AM, the@new-order.net writes: << http://www.niagara.edu/neworder/graphics/fac73pl.jpg I can't see anybody other than London going to the trouble of putting out colored vinyl with a question mark on it. >> ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 15:14:39 -0500 From: "Nicolas LeBlanc" Subject: RE: (Fac33) Re: [reply] -> _1963___new_order__international_2____051203____ Was the John Denver thing for "Run" or its remix? Otherwise, I don't see why they didn't put that mix on Retro, as far as I know, royalties are paid to John Denver each time Technique is sold, and since they put the track on the Best of in 1994, they didn't mind too much about it I guess... It's a shame really, considering that if the Run cover we have in our tribute album wins a place on the final album, we'll have to pay John Denver too.. :-( Oh well, that's life I guess, it ruined the song's career though, considering this is probably my favorite New Order song, it's a shame really.. Let's say I've seen some tracks much more similar than Run vs Leaving On A Jet Plane... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 12:50:41 -0800 From: Sam Habash Subject: Re: (Fac33) Re: [reply] -> _1963___new_order__international_2____051203____ On Sat, Dec 06, 2003 at 03:14:39PM -0500, Nicolas LeBlanc wrote: > Let's say I've seen some tracks much more similar than Run vs Leaving On A > Jet Plane... The whole thing still pisses me off, as I recently heard John Denver's version and it sounds *nothing* like Run. I'd almost call this a Factory situationist-type practical joke (like what happened with Section 25's Bad News Week in 1987 and Johnathan King) if I didn't know better. - --Sam ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 01:01:45 +1100 From: Colin_Loo@national.com.au Subject: (Fac33) Colin Loo/VIC/NAB/NAG_AP is out of the office. I will be out of the office starting 04/12/2003 and will not return until 09/12/2003. I will respond to your message when I return. __________________________________________________________________________ The information contained in this email communication may be confidential. You should only disclose, re-transmit, copy, distribute, act in reliance on or commercialise the information if you are authorised to do so. Any views expressed in this email communication are those of the individual sender, except where the sender specifically states them to be the views of a member of the National Australia Bank Group of companies. Any advice contained in this e-mail has been prepared without taking into account your objectives, financial situation or needs. Before acting on any advice in this e-mail, National Australia Bank Limited recommends that you consider whether it is appropriate for your circumstances. If this e-mail contains reference to any financial products, the National recommends you consider the Product Disclosure Statement (PDS) or other disclosure document before making any decisions regarding any products. The National Australia Bank Group of companies does not represent, warrant or guarantee that the integrity of this communication has been maintained nor that the communication is free of errors, virus or interference. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 10:03:16 -0600 From: "Ivarsson, Torbjorn (T)" Subject: RE: (Fac33) Re: [reply] -> _1963___new_order__international_2____ 051203____ > -----Original Message----- > From: GaoBest@aol.com [mailto:GaoBest@aol.com] > Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2003 12:19 PM > > 9:55 17 the perfect kiss (live video) from the 'best of' japanese > laserdisc" > How is this different from the regular Substance video > release, or the one on Retro? Hmm, there has been discussion about the Retro version. AFAIK, the Retro version and the Live Mix from the US 12" promo are not the same. Apparently, they are from two different takes of the video. I'm sure that someone can quickly confirm if the Retro version and the one on Substance (LD and VHS are the same) are the same or not. > The 3:40 edit of BLT (US 12" promo) - is that on any CD? Isn't that the Single Remix? > And is FAC73PL a bootleg or an official promo? Official. The Corleone Mix on FAC73SW is the Brain Mix. T. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 13:03:29 EST From: GaoBest@aol.com Subject: Re: (Fac33) Re: [reply] -> _1963___new_order__international_2____ 051203____ Oh, the Retro version is longer than the version on Substance video, but I'm convinced that the actual music part is the same - well, I'm pretty sure. Hopefully others will chime in with their observations and can concur. x Mike In a message dated 12/7/03 8:04:13 AM, tivarsson@lucent.com writes: << > 9:55 17 the perfect kiss (live video) from the 'best of' japanese > laserdisc" > How is this different from the regular Substance video > release, or the one on Retro? Hmm, there has been discussion about the Retro version. AFAIK, the Retro version and the Live Mix from the US 12" promo are not the same. Apparently, they are from two different takes of the video. I'm sure that someone can quickly confirm if the Retro version and the one on Substance (LD and VHS are the same) are the same or not. >> ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 10:35:11 -0800 From: Sam Habash Subject: Re: (Fac33) Re: [reply] -> _1963___new_order__international_2____ 051203____ > Hmm, there has been discussion about the Retro version. AFAIK, the Retro version > and the Live Mix from the US 12" promo are not the same. Apparently, they are from > two different takes of the video. I'm sure that someone can quickly confirm if the > Retro version and the one on Substance (LD and VHS are the same) are the same or not. The Substance video version is 9:10. The Retro cd5 audio version is 9:55. I'm fairly sure that they are not the same, with the Retro version being heretofore unreleased. What's puzzling me is that GaoBest is stating that this alternate take may exist (in video form, no less) and has been released in Japan: 9:55 17 the perfect kiss (live video) from the 'best of' japanese What exactly *is* this? I couldn't find any matching listing. The 'best of' japanese (which I don't have, I'm relying on the disography sites) lists the track timing at 9:10. I know there's an edit (of what I thought was the Substance version) that serves to also take out the "playing with my pleasure zone" line. This also appeared on Qwest PRO-A-2342, which I have somewhere in the vinyl vault. The edit is 5:18 (or 5;13, depending on whom you believe) in length. I've always assumed this came from the 9:10 take, but it appears now that that's not true. Possible correction for Nic: http://www.neworderonline.com/Release.aspx?ReleaseID=128 lists 5:13 for its verison of TPK Live Video version. Unless there are different versions of the bonus cd floating about (g0d help us if this is so) I think this entry is in error, and may have been an "anticipatory listing" based on the timing you have for the "Live Video Version" elsewhere in your discography, as the one I received has the full 9:55 version. http://www.worldinmotion.net/neworder/discography/boxset/retro.htm gives 9:55. > > The 3:40 edit of BLT (US 12" promo) - is that on any CD? > > Isn't that the Single Remix? Well, it's listed as being titled as "edit" or "Shep's Single Mix", so depending on what listing you go by, maybe. :) Here's a matrix of BLT compiled from all the discography sources. I do this to illustrate how confusing the whole situation is, given that there may be only really only 3 unique mixes and their corresponding edits (making a total of six) and variations thereof (an additional two, for a total of 8). 3 : 23 Bizarre Dub Triangle 3 : 23 Bizarre Love Triangle (Threesome Version) 3 : 36 Bizarre Love Triangle (Canadian Edit) [1] 3 : 40 Bizarre Love Triangle (edit) 3 : 43 Bizarre Love Triangle (Shep.s Single Mix) 3 : 44 Bizarre Love Triangle (single remix) 3 : 52 Bizarre Love Triangle (album version) [2] 4 : 19 Bizarre Love Triangle (LP Version) 4 : 19 Bizarre Love Triangle (Original Album Version) 4 : 20 Bizarre Love Triangle (Album Version) 4 : 58 Bizarre Love Triangle (extended edit) 4 : 59 Bizarre Love Triangle (Shep.s 12 .. Alternate Mix) 6 : 41 Bizarre Love Triangle (Shep.s Extended dance) 6 : 44 Bizarre Love Triangle (Shep Pettibone Remix) 6 : 45 Bizarre Love Triangle (Extended Version) 6 : 56 Bizarre Love Triangle (Dub Version) 7 : 00 Bizarre Dub Triangle 7 : 00 I Don't Care (dub) 7 : 03 Bizarre Love Triangle (Shep.s Dub Version) [1] A unique edit, only available on the Canadian 7". [2] This is what http://www.worldinmotion.net/neworder/discography/singles/1986/blt.htm gives for the second track on Qwest PRO-CD-7587. If it is correct, it represents So, to recap, there's the album version (with possibly a unique edit on a promo), a 12" remix with an edited version, a 7" remix with a Canadian-only variation, and a dub version with its own edit. - --Sam ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 11:18:40 -0800 From: Sam Habash Subject: Re: (Fac33) Re: [reply] -> _1963___new_order__international_2____ 051203____ On Sun, Dec 07, 2003 at 01:03:29PM -0500, GaoBest@aol.com wrote: > Oh, the Retro version is longer than the version on Substance video, but I'm > convinced that the actual music part is the same - well, I'm pretty sure. > Hopefully others will chime in with their observations and can concur. I'm doing an A/B listen of the two versions...and I think you're right. Barney's whoops seem to match up about exactly, as do other things... The difference in timing then would just be the result of the video version not including all the extraneous speaking before and after. However, the Substance version fades out the final 'extra' guitar strum and they seem to mix Barney (especially the cowbell, more cowbell!) down in the Retro remastering. - --Sam ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 13:33:12 -0600 From: "Ivarsson, Torbjorn (T)" Subject: RE: (Fac33) Re: [reply] -> _1963___new_order__international_2____ 051203____ > -----Original Message----- > From: Sam Habash [mailto:the@new-order.net] > Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2003 1:35 PM > > The Substance video version is 9:10. The Retro cd5 audio > version is 9:55. > > I'm fairly sure that they are not the same, with the Retro > version being heretofore unreleased. Ok. In that case, the Live Mix from the US 12" promo is taken from the Substance version (fade out, I guess). All I know is that we (supposedly) only have two "live" versions of TPK... > What's puzzling me is that GaoBest is stating that this > alternate take may exist > (in video form, no less) and has been released in Japan: > > 9:55 17 the perfect kiss (live video) from the 'best of' japanese > > What exactly *is* this? I couldn't find any matching listing. > The 'best of' japanese > (which I don't have, I'm relying on the disography sites) > lists the track timing at 9:10. Well, the timing info in the Discography/ies is known to not always be correct... :) If any timing info exists on the sleeve/label, I usually use that. If that timing info is way off, a note is probably made. I don't really see any logic of having an additional version of the video. Perhaps, the info is just misinterpreted? > I know there's an edit (of what I thought was the Substance > version) that serves > to also take out the "playing with my pleasure zone" line. > This also appeared on > Qwest PRO-A-2342, which I have somewhere in the vinyl vault. > The edit is 5:18 > (or 5;13, depending on whom you believe) in length. I've > always assumed this > came from the 9:10 take, but it appears now that that's not true. 5:13 or 5:18, does it matter? To me it's the same. Timing info from vinyl is always tricky. 1) you have to start the clock exactly when the track starts, can be hard if it's a "fade in" intro. 2) the turntable has to spin at the correct speed. 3) you have to stop the clock when the track ends, can be hard if the track is faded. It's easy to be a couple of seconds off... > Here's a matrix of BLT compiled from all the discography > sources. I do this to > illustrate how confusing the whole situation is, given that > there may be only really > only 3 unique mixes and their corresponding edits (making a > total of six) and > variations thereof (an additional two, for a total of 8). He, he. Those edits and timing differences can be annoying. Especially since the difference between two versions may only be some additional instrument playing a bar or two. I've never thad the energy to listen through all the tracks and figure out the diff... Please someone else do that please? ;) One thing I did learn not too long ago is that the version of Temptation on Something Wild is *not* the 7" version, but a different "7 inch" version, which means that we don't have the original 7" version on CD. T. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 20:14:29 EST From: GaoBest@aol.com Subject: Re: (Fac33) Re: [reply] -> _1963___new_order__international_2____ 051203____ Actually that #17 video is info I cut/pasted from Raj (Negative One) - I'm assuming he will at some point explain this. The #17 referred to the track listing on one of the discs for his International 2 project. x Mike In a message dated 12/7/03 10:36:14 AM, the@new-order.net writes: << What's puzzling me is that GaoBest is stating that this alternate take may exist (in video form, no less) and has been released in Japan: 9:55 17 the perfect kiss (live video) from the 'best of' japanese What exactly *is* this? I couldn't find any matching listing. The 'best of' japanese (which I don't have, I'm relying on the disography sites) lists the track timing at 9:10. >> ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 19:18:33 -0800 From: Sam Habash Subject: Re: (Fac33) Re: [reply] -> _1963___new_order__international_2____ 051203____ On Sun, Dec 07, 2003 at 01:33:12PM -0600, Ivarsson, Torbjorn (T) wrote: > > I'm fairly sure that they are not the same, with the Retro > > version being heretofore unreleased. > > Ok. In that case, the Live Mix from the US 12" promo is taken from the > Substance version (fade out, I guess). All I know is that we (supposedly) > only have two "live" versions of TPK... (just summarizing our findings, as pedantic as it may seem) Looks like all the versions come from the same take. The Retro version adds comments by the participants before and after the take, and looks to have been remastered, which seem to send Barney and his gear lower into the mix. The Substance version omits the comments, and also fades out the last guitar bit. The promo 12" edit, as best as I remember, is a pretty rough internal edit that takes out a good chunk of the song, probably for the purpose of making the video airable (issues of length and Barney's "playing with your pleasure zone" lyric). > Well, the timing info in the Discography/ies is known to not always be > correct... :) I don't think that's necessarily the fault of the compilers, but the fact that the same song on different issues can list different timings. You mentions very good reasons a bit further on. > If any timing info exists on the sleeve/label, I usually use that. If that > timing info is way off, a note is probably made. That's a sensible way to do it. I'm not sure if others have taken the additional step. I feel lucky we have no less than three independent discographies (Ceremony, NOOL, and WIM)... > I don't really see any logic of having an additional version of the video. > Perhaps, the info is just misinterpreted? Indeed, that seems to be the case. > 5:13 or 5:18, does it matter? To me it's the same. Timing info from vinyl is > always tricky. 1) you have to start the clock exactly when the track starts, > can be hard if it's a "fade in" intro. 2) the turntable has to spin at the > correct speed. 3) you have to stop the clock when the track ends, can be hard > if the track is faded. It's easy to be a couple of seconds off... Yup. > He, he. Those edits and timing differences can be annoying. Especially since the > difference between two versions may only be some additional instrument playing a > bar or two. I've never thad the energy to listen through all the tracks and figure > out the diff... Please someone else do that please? ;) That's -1's job. :-) > One thing I did learn not too long ago is that the version of Temptation on Something > Wild is *not* the 7" version, but a different "7 inch" version, which means that we > don't have the original 7" version on CD. Well, I thought that the original Temptation was just one long track, that started in on the 7" and contined on the 12". In fact, you yourself said that! from http://www.niagara.edu/neworder/singles/temptation.html [T.Ivarsson] The 7" has a cold start and fade out end, the 12" has a fade in start and a cold end. The rumor is, to experience the total Temptation one should paste the two versions together to a complete song with cold start and cold end. Is the Something Wild version then an edit of the 7"? -1's comment seems to indicate that it is: "this version is very similiar to the regular 7" edit, but is shorter.." 3 : 28 Temptation (Something Wild version) 5 : 14 Temptation (FAC 63 7") 7 : 26 Temptation (FAC 63 12") - --Sam ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 22:23:11 -0600 From: "-1" Subject: (Fac33) [preview] -> _international_2(statistics)_____ 'then i knew it from the start' international 2 - --------------- stats - --------------- 76 tracks 5+ hours of music 4 discs track hilights - --------------- 45 unreleased / hard to find / rare tracks including promo mixes, 7" edits, flexi, live tracks, laserdisc, and video mixes.....never before listed on any official release or compilation.... remastered and re-edited..... notes - ---------------- covers the new order era of 1980-2003, including every single they've released in chronological order, and a majority of the b-sides from those singles..... as you know, new order is well known for their 12" mixes....but they have also released several 7" versions for their singles.....many of them have been unreleased...even on 'the best of', and 'retro', and 'international'...until now.. featuring a comprehensive source listing, along with a limited discography, and sound notes for every track..... collected literally from sources around the world...this collection spans the globe, with releases from the uk, us, and other countries....... 'international 2'...fills the void, and delivers a statement for 'new order', the past, the present, and a glimpse into the future..... *DISCLAIMER : i am not an employee, or associated with an musical affiliation that is related to 'new order', their management, or their record companies..this information is for educational, and research use only...this is a NON-PROFIT, and NON-COMMERCIAL release... later | || | | || || ne gativ e 1 'thinking hard' ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 23:29:20 -0800 From: Sam Habash Subject: (Fac33) Re: [reply] -> _perfect_kiss(video)_version_issues____ On Sun, Dec 07, 2003 at 11:17:26PM -0600, -1 wrote: > bottom line > ================================ > i still prefer the original video version over retro > > although the 'new' recording been in the vaults > since '85 (18 years or so)...its very cool to > be able to hear yet another interpretation on it.. > > i think i've listened to the original so many > times, this one seems like almost a new version > of it.. but i'm very disappointed in bernards vocal > performance as the words come off very weak, > and quiet... somewhat subdued... > > i think that's why they didn't use that version > for the final take of the video... > > if you haven't heard the original video version, > get that one, and compare them.. > > (i wonder if the video for the 'retro' version > exists somewhere?) Your writeup essentially _proves_ that the Retro and Substance *recording* is one and the same. The one thing that differs is the mix. I had said that the Retro version may have been remastered, but I may have that backwards. It could be that the Retro track is a "pre-mix" version taken right off the recorders, where it was subsequently mixed in a way to make it more listenable (vocals cleaned up, keyboards not overloud, last guitar note faded out). For what it's worth, I agree with you. - --Sam ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 11:38:24 -0000 From: "Mark Reed" Subject: Re: (Fac33) Re: [reply] -> _1963___new_order__international_2____ 051203____ 2003 1:35 PM > > The Substance video version is 9:10. The Retro cd5 audio > version is 9:55. > > I'm fairly sure that they are not the same, with the Retro > version being heretofore unreleased. >Ok. In that case, the Live Mix from the US 12" promo is taken from the Substance version (fade out, I guess). All I know is >that we (supposedly) only have two "live" versions of TPK... The "live" 12" promo is not a fade that I can remember, but a full, short version. M ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 06:51:06 -0600 From: "Ivarsson, Torbjorn (T)" Subject: RE: (Fac33) TPK & Temptation versions (was: _1963___new_order__in ternational_2____ 051203____) > -----Original Message----- > From: Sam Habash [mailto:the@new-order.net] > Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2003 10:19 PM > [TPK video stuff] > > Looks like all the versions come from the same take. Hmm, I seem to clearly remember a discussion here on Ceremony, the NOOL-forum, or perhaps the WiM-forum, at the time of Retro's release, that someone had listened to the versions and found that one of them (I'm leaning towards Retro) were in fact from a different take. Now, I may be wrong since "clearly", "remember" and "Monday morning" usually do not mix well together... :) Perhaps it's the 12" that is different. Stuff like this will be easier to answer once me and my collection are on the same continent. > That's a sensible way to do it. I'm not sure if others have taken the > additional step. I feel lucky we have no less than three independent > discographies (Ceremony, NOOL, and WIM)... Don't assume though that there's no correlation between them... !) > Is the Something Wild version then an edit of the 7"? -1's > comment seems to indicate that it is: > > "this version is very similiar to the regular 7" edit, but is > shorter.." > > 3 : 28 Temptation (Something Wild version) > 5 : 14 Temptation (FAC 63 7") > 7 : 26 Temptation (FAC 63 12") I did a "parallell" listening-comparison between the SW version and the 7" version not too long ago (I think the discussion was on NOOL a month or so ago), and the SW version is more than just a let's-cut-away-some-parts-to-make-the-track-shorter-edit. In the SW version, the "chorus" is repeated more often, and repeated over musical parts that in the 7" version just contains music. I'm not going to provide a detailed analysis with timing info, but the differences were big enough for me to warrant the classification SW Mix or perhaps SW Remix. T. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 09:12:44 -0800 From: Sam Habash Subject: Re: (Fac33) TPK & Temptation versions (was: _1963___new_order__in ternational_2____ 051203____) On Mon, Dec 08, 2003 at 06:51:06AM -0600, Ivarsson, Torbjorn (T) wrote: > Hmm, I seem to clearly remember a discussion here on Ceremony, the NOOL-forum, > or perhaps the WiM-forum, at the time of Retro's release, that someone had listened > to the versions and found that one of them (I'm leaning towards Retro) were in fact > from a different take. Hrm, I should search for that discussion...as I recall this has been discussed already. > Now, I may be wrong since "clearly", "remember" and "Monday morning" usually do > not mix well together... :) Perhaps it's the 12" that is different. Stuff like > this will be easier to answer once me and my collection are on the same continent. As I said, I have the promo 12" (and a turntable that works, but the amp I was using is currently out of commission). I am sure, through, that the edit on the 12" leaves out much of the middle of the song. > > That's a sensible way to do it. I'm not sure if others have taken the > > additional step. I feel lucky we have no less than three independent > > discographies (Ceremony, NOOL, and WIM)... > > Don't assume though that there's no correlation between them... !) Good point. I'm sure there's plenty of cross-fertilization going on. For all I know, they may all be using the same scans. > > 3 : 28 Temptation (Something Wild version) > > 5 : 14 Temptation (FAC 63 7") > > 7 : 26 Temptation (FAC 63 12") > > I did a "parallell" listening-comparison between the SW version and the 7" version > not too long ago (I think the discussion was on NOOL a month or so ago), and the > SW version is more than just a let's-cut-away-some-parts-to-make-the-track-shorter-edit. > In the SW version, the "chorus" is repeated more often, and repeated over musical > parts that in the 7" version just contains music. Interesting. Maybe this is deserving of an A/B listen as well. > I'm not going to provide a detailed analysis with timing info, but the differences > were big enough for me to warrant the classification SW Mix or perhaps SW Remix. The obvious followup question then is "why"?. I wonder if at one time this track was prepared for a US single release, but shelved, and the 3:28 mix was commissioned but never used. - --Sam ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 17:15:46 EST From: GaoBest@aol.com Subject: (Fac33) Another "Blue Monday" cover From another list... << I found an interesting (but quite lovely, IMO) cover of "Blue Monday" by this Danish band called "Swan Lee" (no relations), and I thought I'd share... 1. go to http://www.swanlee.dk/ 1.5. click the union jack 2. click "Audio + Video" 3. click "Blue Monday" Any thoughts on this track? >> ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 17:24:50 -0500 From: "M. T. Weidner" Subject: Re: (Fac33) Another "Blue Monday" cover Interesting cover, dreamy-type vocals. Not bad, different. M. GaoBest@aol.com wrote: >>From another list... > ><< I found an interesting (but quite lovely, IMO) cover of "Blue Monday" by >this Danish band called "Swan Lee" (no relations), and I thought I'd >share... > >1. go to http://www.swanlee.dk/ >1.5. click the union jack >2. click "Audio + Video" >3. click "Blue Monday" > > >Any thoughts on this track? > >> > >------- >+ Ceremony mailing list web page: http://www.monkey.org/~laps/ceremony/ >+ To talk to a person, send mail to . > > >. > > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 19:16:17 -0500 From: "Neil" Subject: Re: (Fac33) Another "Blue Monday" cover Thoughts on first playing: good, dreamy, questioning.... oh...singing... more singing......child like voice... still she's probably a Dane, so tall.....blond...ah good electronic sounds....bass....fades out....hmm..Dr Who? I guess it was ok, but not so sure about the vocals. Neil. - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 5:15 PM Subject: (Fac33) Another "Blue Monday" cover > From another list... > > << I found an interesting (but quite lovely, IMO) cover of "Blue Monday" by > this Danish band called "Swan Lee" (no relations), and I thought I'd > share... > > 1. go to http://www.swanlee.dk/ > 1.5. click the union jack > 2. click "Audio + Video" > 3. click "Blue Monday" > > > Any thoughts on this track? > >> > > ------- > + Ceremony mailing list web page: http://www.monkey.org/~laps/ceremony/ > + To talk to a person, send mail to . > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 11:03:33 -0600 From: "-1" Subject: (Fac33) [update] -> _new_order__international_2____111203____ 'i always try i always miss' [update] hey no'ers.. ok, we're at the final stages of finishing of the discs now.. i've got a few more sound issues to deal with, but that won't take long.. i'm going to record the 'world in motion' (video mix) tonight off laserdisc at my friends place..so that should take care of that.. also one other FINAL change. [boxset] -> _international_2__v0.4f_(final)_ i've added these tracks: - -------------------------- + 'such a good thing' - - removed 'true faith 02' ((philip steir re-order edit)) - ------------- 'true faith' is represented 3 other times, so we're not really missing out...also, the sound quality of that track that i had wasn't so great.. instead, we're getting the extra track, thats only on the uk cd-single for the 'world in motion 02' release..and it is in cd-quality also.. later | || | || ||| neg ative 1 'one of these days' ------------------------------ End of ceremony-digest V2003 #59 ******************************** ------- + For information on subscribing/unsubscribing and the digest archives, + see the Ceremony web page: http://www.monkey.org/~laps/ceremony/ + To talk to a person, send mail to .